Speaker 1: 0:02

Piotr, good afternoon.

Speaker 2: 0:04

Hi Piotr.

Speaker 1: 0:06

Hi, michal. Today we are going to talk about a short and quite simple problem. How long ago did I talk about it? About 3 months ago. You will talk about it.

Speaker 2: 0:26

We encourage you to listen to what Piotr said. We will link the podcast.

Speaker 1: 0:32

I was distracted for an hour so it was a bit of a problem. So it's for fans.

Speaker 2: 0:39

Yes, for fans of longer podcasts. Today we want to talk about some of the topics you have talked about. I will tell you about the different titles that are used in IT Project product management general product.

Speaker 1: 1:10

Management, with teams that create something or do something in IT. Some things are the same. I have the same feeling and people are lost with these labels. I remember that when I started, I had no idea what was going on with these names. Sometimes I thought it was more than once. But it was more than once. It was more than once.

Speaker 2: 1:37

It was more than once. I think it will help you to focus on the market. If you see any announcements, you can filter them. I know it can be for me or not. I think it's something that should help.

Speaker 1: 1:59

We will start with the three main titles. I have talked about Michał recently, so maybe you can start with the most typical one.

Speaker 2: 2:09

I am curious if you agree with me. Of course we will talk about the three main titles, and then we can talk about the most interesting ones.

Speaker 1: 2:18

The most interesting ones are the ones that are confusing sometimes, and there are times when you already know what to do. The most classic one, the typical one, the one with a scarf or a more typical one, or with a hat and a ketchup, is the IT Project Manager.

Speaker 2: 2:42

Yes, and, as we have checked, there is still the most popular role. There are people who are most titled project managers. It is mainly because the IT organization is needed and not IT, but the organization that requires the management of projects. It is natural that it will be the most common term, and you can find a lot of it under it. At least I don't know if you will say so, but the project manager is a person who just tries to manage some given project or projects.

Speaker 1: 3:22

He tries.

Speaker 2: 3:23

Yes, he tries. It is often a fight with the wind and of course, he plans. He plans projects, he organizes them. He also helps other people organize their work. He coordinates different stakeholders. He often helps other members of the team. He doesn't fill in the function of strict decision making. He is not yet the manager. He is the boss, for example, the programmer, designers or anyone else. He helps in coordinating the main projects, especially when it comes to classic things like harmonograms, maybe boot-jet timings, everything, and he is, I think, a very important role and probably in the project manager.

Speaker 2: 4:13

But the project manager will be more different in his role or in the organization. But here the biggest focus is to make the project finished in time in terms of some budget, but it is in accordance with the expectations of various people involved in the project.

Speaker 1: 4:36

I think that the name of the project manager is very it is very catchy because IT shows that it is an area, or usually it is a place, connected to software so creating, creating, writing, changing something with software Project. So I think it is a series of temporary projects which you have to get from A to Z and not work on the whole on a continuous process. As a project manager, you get some task which is a big task this project and after it is finished you get another project which you also have to take care of. Or you often have two or three projects in the same time in your head. And the name of the project manager is in your head because I would say that, depending on the organization, you are still a business-based responsible for whether this project will or will not come out. So even if you are a connector, like a business requirement, with the programists who have something to get there on the front, usually I would emphasize this waterfall at this approach.

Speaker 2: 6:07

If someone does not know something because something is going on, the harmonograms are not set up, someone does not know their role in the project, does not know what is going on at the next stage, then it is often the role of a project manager to advise. Of course, it always comes down to the role of a product manager. However, if you have such a role as a project manager, you have to define it, of course. If you do not have it and you are a product manager, then unfortunately you have to agree that many of these obligations will fall on you in a natural way, I would say that if it is wrong, the devil in these details and the organization's data.

Speaker 1: 7:02

but the IT project manager is responsible for the results of some technological projects in the organization and that is the person.

Speaker 2: 7:16

What do you think, Piotr? Is it possible that a project manager, a product manager and a product manager Probably a project manager can be the least technical person? I think it is not absolutely necessary.

Speaker 1: 7:31

I think it is an entry level. I think it is starting to be a bit in such a line because it starts with a project management. If you are in the studio, I imagine that someone even in the studio or even through the studio can give added value by organizing meetings, by writing information, by writing things preparing materials, by writing some small team, by writing some small server house, by writing some website pages for WordPress or other popular solutions. I imagine that someone can enter. The fun starts later. The fun starts with the product manager.

Speaker 2: 8:25

Yes, there are many project managers. From my experience and conversations with various people, it shows that many people who were project managers and they have these product cuts. They want to continue to grow and be more interested in products. Another step in this direction is to be a pro-conner. There is a lot of A lot of people see the announcement of the product manager for example for the JOSJay-9T.

Speaker 2: 9:06

For me, the definition is very simple. Product owner is the role in the project and it is related to being a pro-conner in the project. You answer for the backlog, you answer for the sprint, you answer for the product that meets the client's needs. It was completed, and so on. It is the role of someone in the project. I think it is a clear distinction. When we go to the product manager, I can explain what the product owner and the product manager are. I would like to know your opinion on this topic.

Speaker 1: 9:53

Oh Jesus, product owner is a bit like and here in the sense that every, in the sense that it should be, what is, if we understand it through the protocol? What is with the Cambuc or with the Skanguides? As if you can also make the certificates and know what it is about from A to Z. But but what? Life is different. Life is very different. And now I will not talk about his company, but I will go about the protocol and I see things for example, such a requirement, a master from computer science. I see experience, experience as if there is technology. I see expectations, certificates associated with SAFE or as if Skard Array Firmware or as if it is, and such as different things that seem that, seems that maybe a little bit, not completely to this it fits me.

Speaker 1: 11:09

I will click on the other. We have recording a lot of offers, for example A to Z, and there is the only expectation is that someone will work in Skram. Someone once worked in Skram and had experience about a few years. I will not give it to you two or three years, so generally every and the organization interpreters it differently and according to me, unfortunately, the Omner product is such a product that you can run in very bad places in various organizations very fast things.

Speaker 2: 11:50

Yes, this is true because, as you said, in one video this person- will be, I will meet yes, there will be a person. There will be a product with Omner in Skram and that's it. And in the beginning I met with opinions of some people not the Omner product, because it has the Omner name, someone above the product manager, who is the? Owner of this product yes yes, yes, yes.

Speaker 2: 12:18

Someone who takes the final product so this is the product is simply not correct. But if you look for work, for example, and you see the Omner product, then here I will add, you have to read what this company is about and it is worth asking why they called.

Speaker 2: 12:40

If you have the courage why they called it the Omner product and it is also worth asking, if you have the courage, because I often saw maybe not often, but I saw a few times that it was shown that the product owner is the product owner, then the product manager, then the senior product manager, group product manager and so on. So here sometimes these things appear or simply totally equalizing the product owner is the same as the product manager and that's it. And it is worth reading the announcement, it is worth asking what is for them, for this company, it is the product owner and it will help you a lot in the search for work.

Speaker 1: 13:27

But in theory, such a basic, you are responsible for the backlog, responsible for the next, as if here good understanding, understanding and management each and every another growth of values which you set up as a team. You show it as if here you coordinate. Your role is very focused on communication, on having this kind of knowledge, I would say, of this team and its ability to help business, in understanding the organization, in understanding of these actions and also, as a person of the developer team, on this and how it differs in different different. I will add to myself, if you see the definition of SAFE, avoid this you are in a good place no, michal

Speaker 2: 14:27

no you will be a framework and there will be agile. I will not.

Speaker 1: 14:33

I will not search for SAFE MEMS. Write your favorite search warrant and you will find a lot of interesting content, and that's all. And we have the last from this great third, the product manager, mr Michal the simplest definition, how it is for project manager and owner.

Speaker 2: 14:56

For me, the role of the owner depends on the role of the manager. So if you are a product manager, you also have to be if you work in a framework, if you do not work in a framework. But in some other system, then of course you do not have to think in this way that it somehow contains itself.

Speaker 2: 15:20

You do not have to think, but of course you have to do responsibilities that are contained in the role of the product owner. So the value of this backlog for customers, for users, the value of the program manager. Also understand the vision, understand what to build. And here this product manager is just a wider role for me than the product owner. And here I try to convey this opinion in some way no-transcript, I don't want to say strategic, but it's a key part of product development. It connects all aspects and technological aspects, because the product manager should understand technology at a very low level, understand the user's end-of-the-line, be a connector between business technology, programmers and design.

Speaker 1: 16:20

What's the difference between you and the product manager?

Speaker 2: 16:28

I would say that there is a phase and it's a bit fluid. The product manager must have a longer vision of the product and a greater strategic commitment to what the product has to do. I think it's been read in the SRAM guide, but it's probably not supposed to be. The product manager focuses on day-to-day activities like doing a backlog, doing a to-do list. For me, the product manager must have a bigger vision and a wider vision than what is included in the product manager. Additionally, we've seen a few of the last podcasts about marketing, sales, go-to-market, etc.

Speaker 1: 17:41

I'm glad you added it, because I was wondering if I could work with the product manager's framework, which is a bit more strategic, but it's crucial for me that the product manager is responsible for the entire process, like the product owner, the project manager, and you do it as a product owner. You manage a team that is responsible for each iteration of the product and, as a product manager, you answer the business, the business and the product. The challenge is that the jump from the product owner, which is more about listening to the business and the business, and the product manager is a bit like you say, but I would do it by taking the ladders in my own hands and starting to run the bar, so the product is expected to be the ownership level.

Speaker 2: 19:25

That's what I'm talking about but the ownership level is higher.

Speaker 1: 19:29

That's why there is a huge gap between the project manager and the product owner, because they are more focused on the business and the product manager can be more strategic. And that's why the name is important to me, because, if you think of the owner, then the owner is responsible for everything and the manager is responsible for everything.

Speaker 1: 20:02

I will now turn to shameless, shameless, shameless praise for Kanban. First of all, there are no mandatory roles, and two that are suggested will be translated into the same language. There is a service delivery manager and the Require service sorry, requests Manager. So one answer for the supply of something that is expected, that is, the project manager is more focused on the supply, on the knowledge of the subject, as we already know what to do, and the Request Manager service Request Manager answers for the whole. Okay, what are we going to do with your question, this kind of discovery process right, these names are rarely used, but I think they are wonderful which show how cool you can manage, like in a process, like in a process of work.

Speaker 2: 20:58

Yes, yes. Well, I have never worked in a company where there would be, in one project, product Owner and Product Manager.

Speaker 1: 21:08

There are definitely such things, but it's hard for me to take away how it looks like at that time I wouldn't want to pay, I think, as an organization. You said Product Owner and Product Manager, right?

Speaker 2: 21:21

Yes, yes, yes.

Speaker 1: 21:22

Well, I'm now in the situation of Project Manager and Product Manager, as in the organization.

Speaker 2: 21:28

No, no, no, no, sorry, no is Product Owner and Product Manager. So.

Speaker 1: 21:32

Yes, yes, that's exactly what I was talking about but so Well, no, I don't think I had any occasion occasion, or I don't remember how it was because I probably communicated but I have the opportunity to be a Project Manager and Product Manager, right.

Speaker 2: 21:47

Yes, yes, yes, that's for sure. I worked in the previous companies and now in the one I work with. There is also such a system and here, fortunately, these roles are a little more divided so there are no conflicts so far, whereas Product Owner and Product Manager. As a result of our experience, it rarely appears in one product, probably because, well, there is this confusion in what these roles are.

Speaker 2: 22:18

Well, according to us, as we have already established, product Manager is a little wider role than Product Owner and, the same way, when you are looking for a job, it is worth asking who is the Product Manager for this company? How do you use the scrama? How does it apply to the scrama that you use? Well, they don't get tired of it, for example, because in this case, maybe something else will appear. That is the role of Product Manager has been got tired of such Product Owner, and I also often see comments under the podcast that Piotr recorded then with the guys, that someone started as Product Owner and many people thought that it was just for people with some experience a little too little and unfortunately they had an uncertainty with these Proxies and Product Owners, which happened to everything that the clients expected and there were conflicts and in the end the team collapsed.

Speaker 2: 23:33

So here I think it's worth asking if, for someone, product Manager, it's not too much of a role to start with this company.

Speaker 1: 23:42

It depends on the organization. Unfortunately, these roles, these labels, they mean differently. I would suggest them more because it's like treating them as some kind of signpost. But yes, it can come through some kind of you just mentioned Proxies Product Owner. So this is the person who in fact has to communicate through several level labels in the case of the assumption that, as Product Owner, you should have a lead to all the most important people in the organization to be able to create a good opportunity, to establish an opportunity and what is in the task on Backlog or in a way to do things for the team. But it's very rarely. In most cases you as Product Owner, ask your person, contact them in some other organization, or you can ask someone X, y, z, o, o, o, o and it turns out that this person is asking and you will also get a changed answer. So most of the company I would say service who say that they are doing.

Speaker 2: 25:05

Well, I think it's a role sometimes in software houses. I think it's a kind of proxy, to emphasize a bit that you want to be in charge of.

Speaker 1: 25:16

I like it too.

Speaker 2: 25:17

Agile and generally on the Pro. So it's not just this, but there is a proxy, because of course there is this business owner and he in fact decides. But it definitely exists.

Speaker 1: 25:31

This is.

Speaker 2: 25:34

Another example we have Agile slash Technical, Agile slash Technical Project Manager. Yes, what's the point?

Speaker 1: 25:42

Well, the point is that sometimes we meet with such add-ons, right, I think, technical Project Manager. So it's expected that there is something technical, that it is programmed and sometimes there is. There is a kind of idea recruiters or organization recruiters can recruit a senior developer who could make it into a leader. Then we will take someone who will be, for example, technical Project Manager and will be in charge of this project, will be able to say something about this code or something like that once in a while, right? So it depends on the organization. It's just an idea, but it's a path that is interesting for someone, because the program manager through Prog2.3, said that, damn, the passion of the pull requests is slowly. It's slowly to pull and be pushed by the owners or the company's directors. So something like that is interesting, but usually it is more directed to the program managers. And Agile, agile, well.

Speaker 2: 26:55

To emphasize that you are guilty right.

Speaker 1: 26:59

Yes, that you have no problem with the person. You can sit on various weird chairs and hold a lot of them. Well, yes, it really is.

Speaker 2: 27:10

No, I mean, I think it doesn't mean anything.

Speaker 1: 27:14

I'm glad you said that.

Speaker 2: 27:18

Lin Lin, product Manager, or something like that.

Speaker 1: 27:22

It's cool. I'm curious if such organizations recruit people like that, do they work in the industry? Do they work in Kanban? Or what do they work in? Because, if or how are they Agile? Because what they define by Agile because if they define that they change plans every week Well, yes, you have to be very responsible to handle it. So imagine that you can be Agile Product Manager in Kanban, for example, or in some other less known framework.

Speaker 2: 27:55

Well, if it were Scrum, we can probably talk about it right away, but I would rather choose Scrum Master, which, From my experience, I often play a bit of a project manager role. A scrum Maybe not right, but I've definitely been convinced that scrum master is a project manager role in scrum, plus all the scrum things that come into play.

Speaker 1: 28:27

I had a chance to play with scrum masters who said that, apart from the organization of meetings, they were not very good at my perspective, because they were very valuable to me. They were able to continue to be a very project team and there was a scrum master. It was a bit of a surprise, it was a bit of a stick, but I have a lot of strength.

Speaker 2: 28:48

Unfortunately, this scrum master has a role, has an opinion, I think it is worth saying not the best in IT, probably because I have a hypothesis that if someone is a scrum master and they are looking for some scrum master companies because there are such announcements, then this person sometimes too much is attached to this scrum. Because I am finally a scrum master, so here of course you will be a project manager. You have a lot of more, as if a field for signing and also opening up for various frameworks and various projects. When you are a scrum master, you work in this scrum and here I think you need to.

Speaker 1: 29:35

I have also done a lot of organization work, as if the project manager is not very good at what he is saying. He may say that the organization is trying to be versatile and you have to do some things around this team. I don't know. It's hard for me to talk about it. We also have engineering managers. Sometimes you can meet with such offers of work which, after reading and seeing what is there, you can see that this is more of an expectation for someone who is a developer, who just said that he would like to go to the manager's office.

Speaker 1: 30:20

And here of course I am a bit of a criminal, especially because I was a programmer which is the most in the Pascal's Turbo at some point in my life, but it was not true for a long time. So I think that either a programmer or a person like an engineering manager will be a programmer or a more technical person, and it is very difficult to combine these competencies. That is why in the three products that are recommended, probably considered standard, you have a technical and a person who represents a business or a product, and here, if someone is an engineering manager, we have two technical and one design, and then it is quite easy to go towards. It is a very cool solution. It is technologically super attractive. Let's go that way. I am not a fan, but I understand that some organizations just want to have such a one person, a Swiss scissor, and these are very good paid offers, as was the situation.

Speaker 2: 31:25

I think that engineering managers often play such a role organize a bit, help in various things in evaluating various works, and also do a lot of project-like things. So I think that is a very interesting role, especially for people with greater experience who already need to know what they are doing. So here I think that, especially in larger organizations, it is necessary.

Speaker 1: 31:55

We also mentioned Scram Master. Sometimes you can meet Scram Master coordinates so that the team works well, so that it works effectively according to Scram methods. So metodology sorry, so that meetings take place not artifacts, but there are some rituals, ritual exactly people have rituals with face masks and they do not have rituals that they meet for 4 hours to talk about tasks for the next 2 weeks.

Speaker 1: 32:34

So, scram Master, also about organization. This is a book definition, but the organization can do various things. I met Scram Master who were testers, scram Master who were project managers. What was your most interesting experience?

Speaker 2: 32:54

Rather in the context of project management, it was very just for people who, in the larger scale, just had to figure out a few product team Scram team. So here for sure, in my experience, scram Master, one small team or even medium team Scram team, it doesn't make sense if you only keep the ScramGuide definition, because then I think that this person will not have these jobs every day. But if it is a team that is more in charge of projects and a few more Scram team teams, which I think is fine, then I think it helps a lot in work.

Speaker 1: 33:44

In general, the question is whether Scram Master is there, because I remind you that if you are not with Scram Book, it's cool, but you can't name it Scram. So I also think that such a help, for it's a little bit like the manager program which Brian from LBNB said, the manager program, so someone who pushes such things or maybe it will be an evolution such a role of HR, maybe in the near future, that such support, a team of talent here I also see the potential and also, as you can see, we have a business analytics.

Speaker 2: 34:26

I think this is a more important role, but probably a little bit in bigger organizations, and here it focuses on the analysis of business needs and finding more technical solutions that help the needs to calm down. And here, from my experience, this role focuses on the type of work I've identified. It should focus on the more technical aspects of creating documentation creating the exact diagrams, flow, really the question of not having any complaints so that everything is well-placed and that the requirements are already written down.

Speaker 1: 35:18

Generally in large organizations, when you have a lot of requests, a lot of questions, then there is someone who needs to do business to get this technical team to do the job In the campaign, as I mentioned, there is a service request manager who should be able to do some tasks at the right time that you can start with them, start doing the delivery. That's it. I have the experience that business analytics, as an organization, is a world of people. It is one of the revolutionary crossroads as an organization and it is a big responsibility to invest in business analytics and that's how it works.

Speaker 2: 36:13

It is easier to work as a product manager and say, okay, you can do it.

Speaker 1: 36:18

You are dealing with it. You don't have to change. But what I mean is that you have to make a good plan yesterday and you have to get it done, even though you are not a programmer here. For example, you have to tell me what this code works for.

Speaker 2: 36:34

Yes, here for sure, the role of business analytics is a bit like you said it has to be a larger organization, but it is also such a role. The company is a lot later options, because later you can also be a product manager if you feel better with this type of work. It is not such a cool role because it gives you a lot of experience, practical and it is not entry level, at least I think so.

Speaker 1: 37:08

It depends on the organization.

Speaker 2: 37:11

Of course, but I think it is not completely entry level, but it gives some options later.

Speaker 1: 37:17

The most important thing is the domain knowledge. If there is someone, even the first job, and someone has been and understands what is going on in the business organization, can find it. It is it, and probably the last one is still short. Sometimes you can meet yourself in BMO. What is it about?

Speaker 2: 37:38

Yes, it must be a larger organization, project management office and here often, if it is about roles, I think there are many interesting names, but mainly it is some kind of department that helps in organizing projects and supports product teams in project management. Here you can be a project manager working in the BMO framework, you can be a program manager or a person who manages more than one project, or, as in Airbnb, we have been asking for our last podcast. It is also an important role and it helps in the same way as project manager, but just on a larger scale, but the same short. The name of the work offer can be varied, but it is about what I can say.

Speaker 1: 38:30

I don't know what the bigger organizations support such initiatives around technology, but sometimes not. Well, I think that's all we noted in our memories around these various names and our decision.

Speaker 2: 38:56

I think. So it was a bit longer than we wanted, but I think we were able to do it.

Speaker 1: 39:04

Okay, and we wish you good luck, and we wish you the same happy days.

Speaker 2: 39:10

In the new year, the first podcast this year so I wish you all the best.

Speaker 1: 39:14

Thank you very much.