IT Project Manager vs. Product Manager

Speaker 1 0:02

Piotr , good afternoon .

Speaker 2 0:04

Hi Piotr .

Speaker 1 0:06

Hi , michal . Today we are going to talk about a short and quite simple problem . How long ago did I talk about it ? About 3 months ago . You will talk about it .

Speaker 2 0:26

We encourage you to listen to what Piotr said . We will link the podcast .

Speaker 1 0:32

I was distracted for an hour so it was a bit of a problem . So it's for fans .

Speaker 2 0:39

Yes , for fans of longer podcasts . Today we want to talk about some of the topics you have talked about . I will tell you about the different titles that are used in IT Project product management general product .

Speaker 1 1:10

Management , with teams that create something or do something in IT . Some things are the same . I have the same feeling and people are lost with these labels . I remember that when I started , I had no idea what was going on with these names . Sometimes I thought it was more than once . But it was more than once . It was more than once .

Speaker 2 1:37

It was more than once . I think it will help you to focus on the market . If you see any announcements , you can filter them . I know it can be for me or not . I think it's something that should help .

Speaker 1 1:59

We will start with the three main titles . I have talked about Michał recently , so maybe you can start with the most typical one .

Speaker 2 2:09

I am curious if you agree with me . Of course we will talk about the three main titles , and then we can talk about the most interesting ones .

Speaker 1 2:18

The most interesting ones are the ones that are confusing sometimes , and there are times when you already know what to do . The most classic one , the typical one , the one with a scarf or a more typical one , or with a hat and a ketchup , is the IT Project Manager .

Speaker 2 2:42

Yes , and , as we have checked , there is still the most popular role . There are people who are most titled project managers . It is mainly because the IT organization is needed and not IT , but the organization that requires the management of projects . It is natural that it will be the most common term , and you can find a lot of it under it . At least I don't know if you will say so , but the project manager is a person who just tries to manage some given project or projects .

Speaker 1 3:22

He tries .

Speaker 2 3:23

Yes , he tries . It is often a fight with the wind and of course , he plans . He plans projects , he organizes them . He also helps other people organize their work . He coordinates different stakeholders . He often helps other members of the team . He doesn't fill in the function of strict decision making . He is not yet the manager . He is the boss , for example , the programmer , designers or anyone else . He helps in coordinating the main projects , especially when it comes to classic things like harmonograms , maybe boot-jet timings , everything , and he is , I think , a very important role and probably in the project manager .

Speaker 2 4:13

But the project manager will be more different in his role or in the organization . But here the biggest focus is to make the project finished in time in terms of some budget , but it is in accordance with the expectations of various people involved in the project .

Speaker 1 4:36

I think that the name of the project manager is very it is very catchy because IT shows that it is an area , or usually it is a place , connected to software so creating , creating , writing , changing something with software Project . So I think it is a series of temporary projects which you have to get from A to Z and not work on the whole on a continuous process . As a project manager , you get some task which is a big task this project and after it is finished you get another project which you also have to take care of . Or you often have two or three projects in the same time in your head . And the name of the project manager is in your head because I would say that , depending on the organization , you are still a business-based responsible for whether this project will or will not come out . So even if you are a connector , like a business requirement , with the programists who have something to get there on the front , usually I would emphasize this waterfall at this approach .

Speaker 2 6:07

If someone does not know something because something is going on , the harmonograms are not set up , someone does not know their role in the project , does not know what is going on at the next stage , then it is often the role of a project manager to advise . Of course , it always comes down to the role of a product manager . However , if you have such a role as a project manager , you have to define it , of course . If you do not have it and you are a product manager , then unfortunately you have to agree that many of these obligations will fall on you in a natural way , I would say that if it is wrong , the devil in these details and the organization's data .

Speaker 1 7:02

but the IT project manager is responsible for the results of some technological projects in the organization and that is the person .

Speaker 2 7:16

What do you think , Piotr ? Is it possible that a project manager , a product manager and a product manager Probably a project manager can be the least technical person ? I think it is not absolutely necessary .

Speaker 1 7:31

I think it is an entry level . I think it is starting to be a bit in such a line because it starts with a project management . If you are in the studio , I imagine that someone even in the studio or even through the studio can give added value by organizing meetings , by writing information , by writing things preparing materials , by writing some small team , by writing some small server house , by writing some website pages for WordPress or other popular solutions . I imagine that someone can enter . The fun starts later . The fun starts with the product manager .

Speaker 2 8:25

Yes , there are many project managers . From my experience and conversations with various people , it shows that many people who were project managers and they have these product cuts . They want to continue to grow and be more interested in products . Another step in this direction is to be a pro-conner . There is a lot of A lot of people see the announcement of the product manager for example for the JOSJay-9T .

Speaker 2 9:06

For me , the definition is very simple . Product owner is the role in the project and it is related to being a pro-conner in the project . You answer for the backlog , you answer for the sprint , you answer for the product that meets the client's needs . It was completed , and so on . It is the role of someone in the project . I think it is a clear distinction . When we go to the product manager , I can explain what the product owner and the product manager are . I would like to know your opinion on this topic .

Speaker 1 9:53

Oh Jesus , product owner is a bit like and here in the sense that every , in the sense that it should be , what is , if we understand it through the protocol ? What is with the Cambuc or with the Skanguides ? As if you can also make the certificates and know what it is about from A to Z . But but what ? Life is different . Life is very different . And now I will not talk about his company , but I will go about the protocol and I see things for example , such a requirement , a master from computer science . I see experience , experience as if there is technology . I see expectations , certificates associated with SAFE or as if Skard Array Firmware or as if it is , and such as different things that seem that , seems that maybe a little bit , not completely to this it fits me .

Speaker 1 11:09

I will click on the other . We have recording a lot of offers , for example A to Z , and there is the only expectation is that someone will work in Skram . Someone once worked in Skram and had experience about a few years . I will not give it to you two or three years , so generally every and the organization interpreters it differently and according to me , unfortunately , the Omner product is such a product that you can run in very bad places in various organizations very fast things .

Speaker 2 11:50

Yes , this is true because , as you said , in one video this person- will be , I will meet yes , there will be a person . There will be a product with Omner in Skram and that's it . And in the beginning I met with opinions of some people not the Omner product , because it has the Omner name , someone above the product manager , who is the ? Owner of this product yes yes , yes , yes .

Speaker 2 12:18

Someone who takes the final product so this is the product is simply not correct . But if you look for work , for example , and you see the Omner product , then here I will add , you have to read what this company is about and it is worth asking why they called .

Speaker 2 12:40

If you have the courage why they called it the Omner product and it is also worth asking , if you have the courage , because I often saw maybe not often , but I saw a few times that it was shown that the product owner is the product owner , then the product manager , then the senior product manager , group product manager and so on . So here sometimes these things appear or simply totally equalizing the product owner is the same as the product manager and that's it . And it is worth reading the announcement , it is worth asking what is for them , for this company , it is the product owner and it will help you a lot in the search for work .

Speaker 1 13:27

But in theory , such a basic , you are responsible for the backlog , responsible for the next , as if here good understanding , understanding and management each and every another growth of values which you set up as a team . You show it as if here you coordinate . Your role is very focused on communication , on having this kind of knowledge , I would say , of this team and its ability to help business , in understanding the organization , in understanding of these actions and also , as a person of the developer team , on this and how it differs in different different . I will add to myself , if you see the definition of SAFE , avoid this you are in a good place no , michal

Speaker 2 14:27

no you will be a framework and there will be agile . I will not .

Speaker 1 14:33

I will not search for SAFE MEMS . Write your favorite search warrant and you will find a lot of interesting content , and that's all . And we have the last from this great third , the product manager , mr Michal the simplest definition , how it is for project manager and owner .

Speaker 2 14:56

For me , the role of the owner depends on the role of the manager . So if you are a product manager , you also have to be if you work in a framework , if you do not work in a framework . But in some other system , then of course you do not have to think in this way that it somehow contains itself .

Speaker 2 15:20

You do not have to think , but of course you have to do responsibilities that are contained in the role of the product owner . So the value of this backlog for customers , for users , the value of the program manager . Also understand the vision , understand what to build . And here this product manager is just a wider role for me than the product owner . And here I try to convey this opinion in some way no-transcript , I don't want to say strategic , but it's a key part of product development . It connects all aspects and technological aspects , because the product manager should understand technology at a very low level , understand the user's end-of-the-line , be a connector between business technology , programmers and design .

Speaker 1 16:20

What's the difference between you and the product manager ?

Speaker 2 16:28

I would say that there is a phase and it's a bit fluid . The product manager must have a longer vision of the product and a greater strategic commitment to what the product has to do . I think it's been read in the SRAM guide , but it's probably not supposed to be . The product manager focuses on day-to-day activities like doing a backlog , doing a to-do list . For me , the product manager must have a bigger vision and a wider vision than what is included in the product manager . Additionally , we've seen a few of the last podcasts about marketing , sales , go-to-market , etc .

Roles and Responsibilities in Product Management

Speaker 1 17:41

I'm glad you added it , because I was wondering if I could work with the product manager's framework , which is a bit more strategic , but it's crucial for me that the product manager is responsible for the entire process , like the product owner , the project manager , and you do it as a product owner . You manage a team that is responsible for each iteration of the product and , as a product manager , you answer the business , the business and the product . The challenge is that the jump from the product owner , which is more about listening to the business and the business , and the product manager is a bit like you say , but I would do it by taking the ladders in my own hands and starting to run the bar , so the product is expected to be the ownership level .

Speaker 2 19:25

That's what I'm talking about but the ownership level is higher .

Speaker 1 19:29

That's why there is a huge gap between the project manager and the product owner , because they are more focused on the business and the product manager can be more strategic . And that's why the name is important to me , because , if you think of the owner , then the owner is responsible for everything and the manager is responsible for everything .

Speaker 1 20:02

I will now turn to shameless , shameless , shameless praise for Kanban . First of all , there are no mandatory roles , and two that are suggested will be translated into the same language . There is a service delivery manager and the Require service sorry , requests Manager . So one answer for the supply of something that is expected , that is , the project manager is more focused on the supply , on the knowledge of the subject , as we already know what to do , and the Request Manager service Request Manager answers for the whole . Okay , what are we going to do with your question , this kind of discovery process right , these names are rarely used , but I think they are wonderful which show how cool you can manage , like in a process , like in a process of work .

Speaker 2 20:58

Yes , yes . Well , I have never worked in a company where there would be , in one project , product Owner and Product Manager .

Speaker 1 21:08

There are definitely such things , but it's hard for me to take away how it looks like at that time I wouldn't want to pay , I think , as an organization . You said Product Owner and Product Manager , right ?

Speaker 2 21:21

Yes , yes , yes .

Speaker 1 21:22

Well , I'm now in the situation of Project Manager and Product Manager , as in the organization .

Speaker 2 21:28

No , no , no , no , sorry , no is Product Owner and Product Manager . So .

Speaker 1 21:32

Yes , yes , that's exactly what I was talking about but so Well , no , I don't think I had any occasion occasion , or I don't remember how it was because I probably communicated but I have the opportunity to be a Project Manager and Product Manager , right .

Speaker 2 21:47

Yes , yes , yes , that's for sure . I worked in the previous companies and now in the one I work with . There is also such a system and here , fortunately , these roles are a little more divided so there are no conflicts so far , whereas Product Owner and Product Manager . As a result of our experience , it rarely appears in one product , probably because , well , there is this confusion in what these roles are .

Speaker 2 22:18

Well , according to us , as we have already established , product Manager is a little wider role than Product Owner and , the same way , when you are looking for a job , it is worth asking who is the Product Manager for this company ? How do you use the scrama ? How does it apply to the scrama that you use ? Well , they don't get tired of it , for example , because in this case , maybe something else will appear . That is the role of Product Manager has been got tired of such Product Owner , and I also often see comments under the podcast that Piotr recorded then with the guys , that someone started as Product Owner and many people thought that it was just for people with some experience a little too little and unfortunately they had an uncertainty with these Proxies and Product Owners , which happened to everything that the clients expected and there were conflicts and in the end the team collapsed .

Speaker 2 23:33

So here I think it's worth asking if , for someone , product Manager , it's not too much of a role to start with this company .

Speaker 1 23:42

It depends on the organization . Unfortunately , these roles , these labels , they mean differently . I would suggest them more because it's like treating them as some kind of signpost . But yes , it can come through some kind of you just mentioned Proxies Product Owner . So this is the person who in fact has to communicate through several level labels in the case of the assumption that , as Product Owner , you should have a lead to all the most important people in the organization to be able to create a good opportunity , to establish an opportunity and what is in the task on Backlog or in a way to do things for the team . But it's very rarely . In most cases you as Product Owner , ask your person , contact them in some other organization , or you can ask someone X , y , z , o , o , o , o and it turns out that this person is asking and you will also get a changed answer . So most of the company I would say service who say that they are doing .

Speaker 2 25:05

Well , I think it's a role sometimes in software houses . I think it's a kind of proxy , to emphasize a bit that you want to be in charge of .

Speaker 1 25:16

I like it too .

Speaker 2 25:17

Agile and generally on the Pro . So it's not just this , but there is a proxy , because of course there is this business owner and he in fact decides . But it definitely exists .

Speaker 1 25:31

This is .

Speaker 2 25:34

Another example we have Agile slash Technical , Agile slash Technical Project Manager . Yes , what's the point ?

Speaker 1 25:42

Well , the point is that sometimes we meet with such add-ons , right , I think , technical Project Manager . So it's expected that there is something technical , that it is programmed and sometimes there is . There is a kind of idea recruiters or organization recruiters can recruit a senior developer who could make it into a leader . Then we will take someone who will be , for example , technical Project Manager and will be in charge of this project , will be able to say something about this code or something like that once in a while , right ? So it depends on the organization . It's just an idea , but it's a path that is interesting for someone , because the program manager through Prog2.3 , said that , damn , the passion of the pull requests is slowly . It's slowly to pull and be pushed by the owners or the company's directors . So something like that is interesting , but usually it is more directed to the program managers . And Agile , agile , well .

Speaker 2 26:55

To emphasize that you are guilty right .

Speaker 1 26:59

Yes , that you have no problem with the person . You can sit on various weird chairs and hold a lot of them . Well , yes , it really is .

Speaker 2 27:10

No , I mean , I think it doesn't mean anything .

Speaker 1 27:14

I'm glad you said that .

Speaker 2 27:18

Lin Lin , product Manager , or something like that .

Speaker 1 27:22

It's cool . I'm curious if such organizations recruit people like that , do they work in the industry ? Do they work in Kanban ? Or what do they work in ? Because , if or how are they Agile ? Because what they define by Agile because if they define that they change plans every week Well , yes , you have to be very responsible to handle it . So imagine that you can be Agile Product Manager in Kanban , for example , or in some other less known framework .

Speaker 2 27:55

Well , if it were Scrum , we can probably talk about it right away , but I would rather choose Scrum Master , which , From my experience , I often play a bit of a project manager role . A scrum Maybe not right , but I've definitely been convinced that scrum master is a project manager role in scrum , plus all the scrum things that come into play .

Speaker 1 28:27

I had a chance to play with scrum masters who said that , apart from the organization of meetings , they were not very good at my perspective , because they were very valuable to me . They were able to continue to be a very project team and there was a scrum master . It was a bit of a surprise , it was a bit of a stick , but I have a lot of strength .

Speaker 2 28:48

Unfortunately , this scrum master has a role , has an opinion , I think it is worth saying not the best in IT , probably because I have a hypothesis that if someone is a scrum master and they are looking for some scrum master companies because there are such announcements , then this person sometimes too much is attached to this scrum . Because I am finally a scrum master , so here of course you will be a project manager . You have a lot of more , as if a field for signing and also opening up for various frameworks and various projects . When you are a scrum master , you work in this scrum and here I think you need to .

Speaker 1 29:35

I have also done a lot of organization work , as if the project manager is not very good at what he is saying . He may say that the organization is trying to be versatile and you have to do some things around this team . I don't know . It's hard for me to talk about it . We also have engineering managers . Sometimes you can meet with such offers of work which , after reading and seeing what is there , you can see that this is more of an expectation for someone who is a developer , who just said that he would like to go to the manager's office .

Speaker 1 30:20

And here of course I am a bit of a criminal , especially because I was a programmer which is the most in the Pascal's Turbo at some point in my life , but it was not true for a long time . So I think that either a programmer or a person like an engineering manager will be a programmer or a more technical person , and it is very difficult to combine these competencies . That is why in the three products that are recommended , probably considered standard , you have a technical and a person who represents a business or a product , and here , if someone is an engineering manager , we have two technical and one design , and then it is quite easy to go towards . It is a very cool solution . It is technologically super attractive . Let's go that way . I am not a fan , but I understand that some organizations just want to have such a one person , a Swiss scissor , and these are very good paid offers , as was the situation .

Speaker 2 31:25

I think that engineering managers often play such a role organize a bit , help in various things in evaluating various works , and also do a lot of project-like things . So I think that is a very interesting role , especially for people with greater experience who already need to know what they are doing . So here I think that , especially in larger organizations , it is necessary .

Roles in Agile Project Management

Speaker 1 31:55

We also mentioned Scram Master . Sometimes you can meet Scram Master coordinates so that the team works well , so that it works effectively according to Scram methods . So metodology sorry , so that meetings take place not artifacts , but there are some rituals , ritual exactly people have rituals with face masks and they do not have rituals that they meet for 4 hours to talk about tasks for the next 2 weeks .

Speaker 1 32:34

So , scram Master , also about organization . This is a book definition , but the organization can do various things . I met Scram Master who were testers , scram Master who were project managers . What was your most interesting experience ?

Speaker 2 32:54

Rather in the context of project management , it was very just for people who , in the larger scale , just had to figure out a few product team Scram team . So here for sure , in my experience , scram Master , one small team or even medium team Scram team , it doesn't make sense if you only keep the ScramGuide definition , because then I think that this person will not have these jobs every day . But if it is a team that is more in charge of projects and a few more Scram team teams , which I think is fine , then I think it helps a lot in work .

Speaker 1 33:44

In general , the question is whether Scram Master is there , because I remind you that if you are not with Scram Book , it's cool , but you can't name it Scram . So I also think that such a help , for it's a little bit like the manager program which Brian from LBNB said , the manager program , so someone who pushes such things or maybe it will be an evolution such a role of HR , maybe in the near future , that such support , a team of talent here I also see the potential and also , as you can see , we have a business analytics .

Speaker 2 34:26

I think this is a more important role , but probably a little bit in bigger organizations , and here it focuses on the analysis of business needs and finding more technical solutions that help the needs to calm down . And here , from my experience , this role focuses on the type of work I've identified . It should focus on the more technical aspects of creating documentation creating the exact diagrams , flow , really the question of not having any complaints so that everything is well-placed and that the requirements are already written down .

Speaker 1 35:18

Generally in large organizations , when you have a lot of requests , a lot of questions , then there is someone who needs to do business to get this technical team to do the job In the campaign , as I mentioned , there is a service request manager who should be able to do some tasks at the right time that you can start with them , start doing the delivery . That's it . I have the experience that business analytics , as an organization , is a world of people . It is one of the revolutionary crossroads as an organization and it is a big responsibility to invest in business analytics and that's how it works .

Speaker 2 36:13

It is easier to work as a product manager and say , okay , you can do it .

Speaker 1 36:18

You are dealing with it . You don't have to change . But what I mean is that you have to make a good plan yesterday and you have to get it done , even though you are not a programmer here . For example , you have to tell me what this code works for .

Speaker 2 36:34

Yes , here for sure , the role of business analytics is a bit like you said it has to be a larger organization , but it is also such a role . The company is a lot later options , because later you can also be a product manager if you feel better with this type of work . It is not such a cool role because it gives you a lot of experience , practical and it is not entry level , at least I think so .

Speaker 1 37:08

It depends on the organization .

Speaker 2 37:11

Of course , but I think it is not completely entry level , but it gives some options later .

Speaker 1 37:17

The most important thing is the domain knowledge . If there is someone , even the first job , and someone has been and understands what is going on in the business organization , can find it . It is it , and probably the last one is still short . Sometimes you can meet yourself in BMO . What is it about ?

Speaker 2 37:38

Yes , it must be a larger organization , project management office and here often , if it is about roles , I think there are many interesting names , but mainly it is some kind of department that helps in organizing projects and supports product teams in project management . Here you can be a project manager working in the BMO framework , you can be a program manager or a person who manages more than one project , or , as in Airbnb , we have been asking for our last podcast . It is also an important role and it helps in the same way as project manager , but just on a larger scale , but the same short . The name of the work offer can be varied , but it is about what I can say .

Speaker 1 38:30

I don't know what the bigger organizations support such initiatives around technology , but sometimes not . Well , I think that's all we noted in our memories around these various names and our decision .

Speaker 2 38:56

I think . So it was a bit longer than we wanted , but I think we were able to do it .

Speaker 1 39:04

Okay , and we wish you good luck , and we wish you the same happy days .

Speaker 2 39:10

In the new year , the first podcast this year so I wish you all the best .

Speaker 1 39:14

Thank you very much .